I had a gunsmith replace some springs and open the choke. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. determination. The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. Anyone else know? significance or purpose. Does it reach the touch hole? For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . Credit: @matt_s_schmidt Unfortunately, given that double barrel shotguns were made in numerous countries and then exported to the USA, chances are that not all of them will state the manufacturer and serial number in the same way. My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Thanks! On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber Revolvers are marked on barrel, on the frame, and on each chamber. Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. Clment Walter On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). Jun 21, 2012. Chartier typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. Your help is appreciated. Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. ('Manufacturer') Home > Product Catalog Shotguns made in Belgium category Firearms/ Small arms 731 Rifles 237 Shotguns 359 Pistols 134 Blank/Signal/Rubberball pistols 1 Black powder/Muzzleloader 2 Ammunition 3 Ammunition Components/Reloading 20 Four barrel . Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Christophe & Montigny The major countries which either did not have proof or whose marks were not recognized were the U.S. and Spain. A "Greener" double? Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . Comblain - Dorther Hubert All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? source of Manufacturer Serial Numbers. Beuret Frres Please note! Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. It's complete. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Search. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum . The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. Belgian Arms cie Bernard Alphonse The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. Counet-Leboulle J. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. The second and third indicateit was proofed at Lige. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. Search. Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. Bastin Frres So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Colette Victor Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. I recently decided to clean it up. Barrels are not rifled- does this mean it must be a shotgun? Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. Bernard Victor & Cie JavaScript is disabled. It is a hammer back breakaway 12 gauge side by side. Jacquemart-Pirotte Joseph Jamar & Cie Jamar Frres Jamar Jean Henri Jamar J. H. & Soleil & Smits Jamar-Smits Jean Henri Jamar Michel Jamin Marcel Jamri J. H. Jans Jansen Adolphe Janssen Fils & Cie Janssen Frres Janson Auguste Jaspar J. JBL Job T. Joiris Joiris & Geurten Joiris Jean, Vandenbergh G & Geurten J. Joiris Joseph Jolet Joseph Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. Berleur Michel If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. Bouquin Ad Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. Bultot Jean The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. What I know so far is: 1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. I have pictures If you need them. Very long barrel. Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Bertrand Joseph they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's. Baltus - Wilmotte Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best. I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! reference books that display proof marks and their meanings. A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers' Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. There are a number of Members . Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. this location now so you can return often. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Proof Anonymes are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. Bettonville - Fontaine << /Length 5 0 R /Filter /FlateDecode >> The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. Original handmade flintlock & percussion ("cap & ball") firearms . Bronne Gustave In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and Chaumont M.J. The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. The blue is rough but the action works. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. I've owned two Belgian side by sides and two Browning Superposed, so I guess I can say that I have some acquaintance withtwentieth centuryones, but unlike my posts on antique English shotguns I don't have an antique Belgian one at hand to describe. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. Any ideas as to date range? examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. 1840-1860. gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C - Galoppin Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. 1860-1870. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. We present shotguns with a wide variety of features, technical characteristics, and prices from the worlds best companies, such as Chiappo, Italy; Tar Ideal Concept LTD, Israel and the leader of Chinese gun-industry - China North Industries Corp. (NORINCO). As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." Gun Barrel Proof Marks. Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Dallas, Donald. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. Closset Louis - Remy Hubert There is a lot of glare in the photo of the barrels' "water table" The left (right as viewed upside down, and likely the tighter choked) barrel seems to read "18.4 (bore size in mm) choke 18.2". Counet - Genot Thank you for cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and Very helpfull once again. All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Home > Companies Gun & arms makers from Belgium country Czech Republic South Africa Israel Malaysia Netherlands Belgium Norway United Arab Emirates Finland Nigeria Ukraine Hungary Indonesia Lithuania Serbia Slovak Republic Croatia New Zealand Sweden Greece Japan Slovenia I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. carefully bound by threads. and an eagles head. Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. thanks for the help so far. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). This printed Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. only 70 i see is the 70above the D = above where it says 20.7 i dont know what those numbers mean. This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. Most double shotguns represented here. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. proof marks. Ancion Jacques & Cie Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated.